Tweaked zombie soldier, cop and survivor drop lists #36645
Conversation
Night-Pryanik
added
Game: Balance
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This shoulder strap addition would be good on all zombie longgun drops, yes? |
Yes. If main firearm spawn chance is rolled, it will spawn with shoulder strap. |
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I meant that the addition of the shoulder strap should be added to all zombie longgun drops to fix that issue as well, not just these military zeds |
Added shoulder strap to long-barreled firearms for zombie cops drop tables
Also 60% chance of ammo loaded
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Ok, I added shoulder straps to ordinary zombies, zombie cops and zombie survivors long-barreled firearms item groups. AFAIK these are the only ones that are zombie-dropped. If there are other, let me know, I'll update them too. |
Night-Pryanik
changed the title
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The idea of zombies not having anything they would have been holding makes sense but assuming weapons would have been on slings isn't appropriate for all the groups here. Most of the changes to reduce drop chances here are unrealistic and inappropriate. A significant part of the reason I fixed soldier drops is because it's jarring for them to be missing so much standard issue equipment.
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| { "group": "infantry_common_gear" }, | ||
| { "group": "infantry_common_gear", "prob": 30 }, |
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30% is unreasonably low. This stuff is standard issue to all infantry and most of them would be carrying it.
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We're talking about zombified soldiers, not live ones, here. As I already said, zombified soldiers could (and most probably will) lose at least some of their gear.
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I think the pertinent thing here is would they carry them into a firefight? What's doctorine about fighting while carrying a daypack?
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While the assumpion that zombies can lose some clothing is reasonable, the proposed solution leads to idiotic situations where zombies are missing socks but have boots on. |
Underwear have 100% chance to spawn. What other "inner-layer clothing" you are talking about? |
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I think the longarm part of this is reasonable, though no opinion about the numbers. The clothing and supply loadout is already assuming that they aren't carrying a rucksack, so I don't really follow the argument that random pieces of clothing are going to be missing. The thing to keep in mind is these soldiers and police would have been deployed for days or maybe weeks, not months and years, so they didn't have time for their loadout to deteriorate to this extent. |
Also removed sniper rifles from bio-operator drop list
Rucksack has a chance to spawn alongside with other clothing, and gear loadout spawn roll isn't tied to the roll of rucksack spawning.
Things happen during the apocalypse, and with the help of imagination one could think of several situation where both live and undead soldiers lost their gear. |
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I returned guaranteed spawn of underwear such as t-shirts and socks. I find helmet or entrenching tool missing from time to time is perfectly reasonable, and don't want to make them spawn always, like they used to, but I could revert my changes to clothing and gear chances to spawn if needed. @kevingranade should I revert them? |
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The only thing in here that should have reduced chance to spawn without a rucksack is MREs. I accounted for chances of lost or missing gear when I fixed these. All changes in here except weapon spawn chances are inappropriate and even that introduces a bigger logic hole than the one it addresses. |
Zombies don't hold weapons in their hands, so let's add shoulder strap to justify them dropping weapons - this is inappropriate? You know, I see here only your statements like "your changes are inappropriate" and other insults. You didn't provide even a single reason of why are they inappropriate besides of your subjective opinion. I even directly asked you about what are you suggesting instead of my change, but you never answered. |
I think such a heated response is quite inappropriate. There are multiple people in this PR trying to understand your logic and reasoning, getting riled up is unproductive In my opinion drops should depend on where we encounter a zombie soldier. You wear different gear in the barracks, in the field or in a lab. But such a change seems bigger than this PR. I agree with lowering the chances for guns and gear, maybe even for a couple of clothing items. I think some people might have been caught literally with their pants down |
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I accounted for chances to lose gear or have never had it when I made all this. Look at the item group definitions. More than 60% of infantry should have entrenching tools if they've all got their standard issue gear. It's absolutely not reasonable for them to lose a substantial amount of their gear down to basic uniform when this stuff is all worn or carried in pouches designed to not be lost or damaged in combat. The monster descriptions even state that they have their gear. Given that all zombie soldiers have high armor values the spawn chance for ballistic armor should actually be 100%. The rationale for reducing weapon spawns in the monster drops is reasonable but you haven't made them spawn where they would have been dropped and it's a worse problem for them to be completely missing than for them to spawn on zombie soldiers when they should spawn on the ground somewhere. All these changes amount to a regression. I've given reasons why this doesn't make sense and you've ignored them. |
Do show me, where and when exactly you've given me your reasons that I've ignored. I reverted back all changes to clothing, common infantry gear and MREs spawn chances. Not because I agree with your reasonings (in fact, I don't find them convincing at all), but because I don't want to continue this senseless argument anymore.
You really think that our current situation where zombies somehow holding weapons (which contradicts our lore) is ok? |
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I mean, you say you dont want to continue the argument but then you ask them to continue it. ( before things get more heated :) ) |
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@ymber I agree with you in practice, all soldier zeds should have their equipment mostly accounted for. However, those things that should not be accounted for in the drop list for a zombie soldier, such as a weapon without a strap or an abandoned rucksack, seem to me to be out of the scope of this PR. Zombie soldiers not carrying weapons in their hands is pretty much mandatory. Therefore, abandoned gear spawns is also pretty much mandatory. But, those are separate issues. As far as I see it, it’s not on @Night-Pryanik to deal with that right now. |
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I agree that it's not @Night-Pryanik 's "job" to e.g. place replacement guns in map extras or whatever else is needed to balance the change to gun availability, but it's also the case that the shift to gun availability is a potential blocker to merging the PR. Now how hard a blocker that is is up in the air, I'm not clear on what this actually does to gun availability numbers. |
I don't want to continue argument about clothing and gear spawn chances, but I'm not against argument about weapons spawn chances.
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/36446/files#diff-f05639cd70843dc9eef0931a15cf7491L16-L35 |
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Increasing gun availability was deliberate. 20% chance for soldiers to have guns was bizarrely low. Cutting drop rates on soldiers makes sense but the other 60% of the weapons need to be accounted for. I think the best solution is to add some nested map chunks to roadblocks and crashed helicopters and such for where they died with blood and stuff they might have been holding and such. |
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l_enforcer_45 in sidearms_cop doesn't exist anymore.
The rifles dropped by bio-operators only have a 0.75 chance to spawn with the SOPMOD contents group and that has a 0.7 chance to spawn a sling so some of those rifles will spawn without slings. It's small enough to overlook if it's hard to change but it's worth fixing at some point.
The only substantial remaining problem here is how many guns are vanishing. Less than 40% of soldiers would have been wearing their weapons on slings when they died so that number should be lower but without those guns spawning somewhere else we've got a large majority of military weapons disappearing. As this currently is it also means no military sniper rifles or DMRs can be found in the field. I think the correct solution is spawning some military_standard_sniper_rifles in vehicles and scattering blood and weapons around some map extras soldiers are likely to have died at so the number of weapons averages out to be about the same as the number of zombie soldiers.
Fixed.
Will be fixed later at some point.
Increased chance to spawn guns from 40% to 70%. I hope this will suffice.
Added 10% chance to spawn sniper rifles on corpses of soldiers on military roadblocks. More interesting locations for them could be added later. |
* Tweaked zombie soldier drop list * Split guns_cop into long- and short-barreled groups Added shoulder strap to long-barreled firearms for zombie cops drop tables * Survivor zed longguns will be dropped with shoulder straps Also 60% chance of ammo loaded * Added shoulder strap to long-barreled firearms drop of ordinary zombies * Moved veteran survivor zombie monster drop list from monster_drops.json to zombie_survivor.json * Added shoulder straps to long-barreled firearms of veteran survivor zombie drop list * Added shoulder strap to default zombie long guns * Removed non-existing weapon from an itemgroup * Added 10% chance to spawn sniper rifles on corpses of soldiers on military roadblocks
Summary
SUMMARY: Balance "Tweaked zombie soldier, cop and survivor drop lists."Purpose of change
Zombie soldiers have too generous loot table. Long-barreled weapons are held in hands of zombie soldiers, cops, survivors, and ordinary zombies (and they shouldn't).
Describe the solution
Also added shoulder straps to ordinary zombies, zombie cops and zombie survivors long-barreled firearms.
Describe alternatives you've considered
None.
Testing
Spawned ~500 zombie soldiers, cops and survivors, debug-killed them all, checked their gear.
Additional context
None.