Waterfront Land in Souselo (Rio Paiva -> Douro River) 🤯 #116
Comments
nelsonic
changed the title
|
Yesterday we went to visit two plots of land in the Douro Valley. ✌️ While we were there a guy went past in his dinghy: This was 31st August in a year of major drought and the river was still navegable up to the property. When the listing says it borders the river for While we were standing there this river cruiser boat went past: This is the Rio Paiva: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Paiva "o rio menos poluído da Europa"One of the least polluted rivers in Europe. One of the best rivers in PT for white water rafting: https://visit-arouca.com/rafting-e-canoying-no-rio-paiva/ This video is quite old but gives you an idea of the rapids upstream: https://youtu.be/DxvuPk1o3Vg There is an activist group https://www.riopaiva.org/ The soil is very fertile and already has several trees planted. It has an established vine of my all-time-favourite grapes: And more blackberries than we could ever hope to consume: But there is still plenty of open space / uncultivated land that we could plant our own trees on: This photo includes the ruin "mill" which we could easily rebuild as a cottage. While we were there @iteles made an off-the-cuff remark regarding We dig the house into the hill such that it's invisible from above and is perfectly harmonious with nature
|
|
If you look at the available homes on AirBnB in the area for larger families: Places on water are considerably more expensive than just "river view". For good reason. |
|
The agent informed us that the current owner / seller of this land inherited it. This is the photo I took to show the farms across the valley: The land is productive. 🥦 The owners are in their 70's and have only one child (son) who is not interested in the land. 🤷♂️ 🤦♂️ They have prepared the land using their tractor but not actually built anything on the land. This is a photo of the lowest terrace that has access to the river: The ruins are ready for re-building which is perfect IMO! The periphery and all the paths to access the various terraces are all forest: It's very shaded and there is plenty of firewood if we want to "manage" the forrest. |
|
This is the cheapest AirBnB in the area with water access: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/18289137 It looks good. But has a microscopic garden:
It has dated decor e.g: But still goes for We could do something so much better!! |
|
This looks very exciting!
…On Thu, 1 Sep 2022 at 01:22, Nelson ***@***.***> wrote:
Yesterday we went to visit two plots of land in the Douro Valley. ✌️
The first one I was hopeful for ended up being a non-starter see: dwyl/phase-three#25
(comment)
<#25 (comment)>
The *second* viewing was *this* land and it was *incredible*. 😍
There are no neighbours (the land either side is abandoned).
But even if there were people we still wouldn't see them as the trees form
a natural barrier. 🌲
While we were there a guy went past in his dinghy:
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187802085-280dd96d-781e-4917-884f-d271d37479df.png>
This was 31st August in a year of major drought and the river was still
navegable up to the property.
When the listing says it borders the river for *150m* they aren't kidding:
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804504-a1d4ff15-b2ac-401e-ab25-4e4ca37c2984.png>
While we were standing there this river cruiser boat went past:
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804807-c3c3ce5e-5adb-4e90-af8d-319d5cb9484c.png>
This is the *Rio Paiva*: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Paiva
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187806241-e03c2c5a-6edc-48a3-8e66-ce324e7a1245.png>
"*o rio menos poluído da Europa*"
One of the least polluted rivers in Europe.
One of the best rivers in PT for white water rafting:
https://visit-arouca.com/rafting-e-canoying-no-rio-paiva/
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187803657-4d69d605-c638-4087-896e-4c1db1a74db0.png>
This video is quite old but gives you an idea of the rapids upstream:
https://youtu.be/DxvuPk1o3Vg
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187803924-40f1d4d1-bf14-4bb2-898c-db6572862d2d.png>
There is an activist group https://www.riopaiva.org/
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804142-26d25f00-58e1-4b49-a383-3bf094443753.png>
The soil is *very* fertile and already has several trees planted.
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804973-2df72f41-65e2-4424-805a-bf0080bf2343.png>
It has an established vine of my all-time-favourite grapes:
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804887-c1fc3b60-40b9-41b2-a289-61afa3eed09d.png>
And more blackberries than we could ever hope to consume:
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187805082-0285adaf-0122-437e-b465-8bcad14493aa.png>
But there is still *plenty* of open space / uncultivated land that we
could plant our own trees on:
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187805240-71a90774-2074-4015-9970-8bf5174a8e96.png>
This photo includes the ruin "mill" which we could easily rebuild as a
cottage.
While we were there @iteles <https://github.com/iteles> made an
off-the-cuff remark regarding
how we could build *considerably* more housing without affecting the
existing land
and it's so obvious it *hurts*!!
We dig the house into the hill such that it's invisible from above and is
perfectly harmonious with nature
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187806011-3d2d9d9e-7649-4249-b822-2c70d2a4fec1.png>
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<#116 (comment)>,
or unsubscribe
<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AF37S7UQ4UK5UDZX5X3WUWLV37ZLDANCNFSM6AAAAAAQB2C47E>
.
You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message
ID: ***@***.***>
|
|
@carolrmc the pictures don’t even come close to doing this place justice. I super regret not having enough time to do a drone fly around to show the scale of it. Yes, its “only” 2.3ha but it feels like a giant playground with incredible potential. There’s enough space for every conceivable activity and enough established trees to build a dozen tree houses.
If Oupa didn’t want to do any waking he could easily stay on the upper terrace where the main house, veg patch and library would all be:
I’m not kidding when I say I would sell everything to buy this place right now. The river is deep enough at the point where we would build the pontoon to dock a decent size sail boat. ⛵️ The “problem” isn’t how awesome the land is, it’s that €270k is the tip of the iceberg of what we would need to spend to realise its’ potential. We could easily spend €40k on an automated irrigation system to transform it to a lush tropical paradise. But if we run out of money before finishing it, we’d be at a huge loss if we tried to sell it. Because nobody would appreciate the investment that went in if they don’t have the finished result. We need to write a detailed plan with sensible estimates for all the costs and timelines. This amongst all the other work that needs to be done … 🙄 would you help (have time to) review it if I write it? I have more ideas than I could hope to describe in comment here, but each one will require cash. Even a tree house won’t be “free” in terms of time+materials. But I think we could get it to the “open” state with paying guests with €250k and 2 years of hard work. (Rough estimate) … we would blitz renovate two of the smaller 2 bedroom ruins so they would be liveable ASAP so they could be rented out to make income. Even without it being “finished” I’m fairly certain that the right type of nature/adventure loving people would want to stay there. Anyway … hope you have a great day! ☀️ |
|
@Stephanymtr given what we briefly discussed in the park this morning, could you please do T1h of desk research into the area around the property while I take A to the Doctor this morning? Basically we need the facts from an objective person. i.e: I want you to talk me out of this by researching how far/near the closest hospital is, how much competition there would be if we tried to establish an AGRO tourism business, etc.
these are the GPS coordinates: 41°03'39.1"N 8°14'43.6"W thanks! 🙏 |
|
Let's go over a couple of disadvantages of moving to that area:
There is a centro de saude VERY close to the property, but doesn't look like it's the best one based on the (old) negative reviews on Google Maps. To be fair, most of the centro de saudes have negative reviews anyway.
The closest hospital is the Hospital da Misericórdia I wasn't able to find anything online about this hospital e.g., what specialties they offer, emergency room 24/7, average amount of docs available etc, BUT it seems that they offer cuidados paleativos, nao tem urgencia. Obviously, you should also think about routine visits. Even if there’s a good doctor in town, specialized medical facilities will be far away. If you or a member of your family requires regular care, you need to ensure that you will have access to an appropriate medical facility in the area you’re moving to. It might be worth speaking with locals & visiting the close facilities before hand for sure. WIth that being said, there is a Suavemed (never heard of before) facility nearby as well. They have got different specialty doctors, good reviews on Google and a website 🥇 I called them now and their closest location (below) is a clinica dentaria ONLY
Their 2nd location, a little further away, offers the other specialties mentioned above BUT it's por consultas marcadas only. It's also worth mentioning people in rural areas don't invest in marketing their business as much as we (city people lol) do. Therefore, there MAY or MAY not be doctors even closer. We just won't know until we speak with locals.... but IS IT WORTH IT ? During my call, I asked the lady which is the closest hospital that has urgencia a noite: Imagine having to drive yourself to the hospital at night* for that LONG 😝 aka #lastnightadventure.
Closest movie theater (I know Netflix exists, but some people enjoy the cinema still) Museum I mean, overall limited services, convenience, entertainment options... isolated which is great for covid times 🤷♀️ 👍 How convinced are you now @nelsonic 😆 |
|
My view on this land was pretty simple: It's gorgeous and I love it, apart from the heart ache of having so much beautiful flat land that we're not allowed to build on 🙄 But I have 1 concern and 1 note of caution. Before I go into those, I want to say that the access to a water source that will never dry up is awesome, the wooded area is super cool and the land inclination isn't an issue if we're not targeting this at the older generation. I would not want to live there full time, but I'd be very happy to spend a couple of weeks there regularly like in Gerês. Number 1 concernThe reason I wasn't anywhere near as convinced as @nelsonic about it is very simple: I don't think that the ruins on the land have a big enough footprint ( I would say they are downright tiny (not much more than a But there is a tiny house expert in Portugal (https://www.odajoana.pt/) who I've been following since the beginning of their tiny house build in 2020 which was also the beginning of their tiny house business. They do consulting and it might be worth understanding their services as to whether it's worth spending a little time with them for the basics if we're doing multiple tiny houses. They are also great at sustainability with a focus on local Portuguese companies so very aligned with our values. Anyway, I digress. This comes down to careful calculation with a business plan to see if the size of what we can build there can support the €270k land cost, which we were told in no uncertain times is highly unlikely to be negotiable and in fact went up by €10k 3 weeks ago. Number 2 concern
⬆️ THIS. I couldn't have said it better myself @nelsonic. We have to be conscious of the fact that this is our whole capacity for investment at the moment and so our opportunity cost is large. We're choosing to delay starting other things (aside from Braga) for another 3 years at least and taking the risk of losing a chunk if it doesn't go according to plan. This is all about our appetite for risk. The business plan is the crux 👍 Minor concerns
|
|
“I would not want to live there full time, but I'd be very happy to spend a couple of weeks there regularly like in Gerês.”Inês, where do you want to live “full time”? 🤷🏼♂️ I know I would much prefer to live somewhere that had fresh/pure air #103, space to grow my own organic food and near-zero noise or light pollution … access to a UNESCO World Heritage site of “Outstanding Natural Beaty” https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1046/ There’s almost no other place in the country that I would rather live. I hate living in the city. The pollution. Trash and cigarette buts on the streets when I go for walks to the park … The noise at all hours that grinds away at my soul… |
|
I see this very much as a business opportunity for now - it has to pay itself back for us to consider it because whatever we do with our current resources must do so in order for us to move forward onto the bigger ideas we want to make happen. My concerns shared around reasons why it should and shouldn't be invested in are focused on this angle, as I believe they should be. Therefore, arguments like 'it's quiet' should be seen from the perspective of the audience we are catering to rather than 'this is a place we personally will live long term' for now. This was my only point and the only relevant point for this issue too 👌🏻 |
|
@iteles the "business opportunity" is both obvious and a misnomer IMO. Sadly, we don't have the cash to burn on buying a place like this as a personal playground or weekend retreat without it making a significant amount of money to "pay for itself". We could easily have that kind of capital ... but that's a discussion for another thread. 🙊 I will attempt to write-up the business plan to convey my thoughts on the revenue potential for the place. 👨💻 ⏳ |
|
@Stephanymtr brought up great points regarding access to basic healthcare but, as someone that lives in Porto and has dealt with urgent care and "centros de saúde", I ought to say the experience here won't probably differ much. It's 5 minutes away and it can surely provide the standard healthcare we're all entitled to. There's been a handful of times I needed to go to a hospital and the amount of time it took me to get there should be the same as here to "Hospital da Misericórdia" - and without traffic. Then again, as a second home/summer or winter retreat, it's great. The terrain looks quite manageable to do whatever crosses @nelsonic's mind and has great potential given the location in relation to the Douro river and how quiet it seems to be. It reminds me a lot of Gerês but without the overwhelming presence of tourists and price gauging (and it's much closer to Braga or Porto and with a similar climate). In my honest opinion, this land/location might seem expensive but seeing how "americanized" Lisbon and Porto are becoming (and gathering a worrying amount of attention, speaking as a local and Portuguese - it's an absolute disaster for us but great for foreigners) and how much gentrification is spreading around Porto's neighbouring cities (Ermesinde, Valongo...), Cinfães will probably have the same fate as Gerês in a couple of years. It only takes one famous footballer to buy a house there 😉 . |
|
Reckon we should write them an email. WTTE: 'Boa tarde Diogo e Ferreira, Obrigada mais uma vez por nos levarem a ver os dois terrenos a semana passada. Como vos dissemos na altura, o primeiro terreno que vimos em Marco de Canaveses não foi muito ao encontro do que pretendíamos mas gostamos bastante do segundo, em Souselo com acesso ao Rio Paiva. Como nos disseram que não há praticamente margem de manobra no preço do terreno, estamos neste momento a rever a parte no financiamento e do que poderíamos fazer com o terreno a médio e longo prazo mas queríamos entrar em contacto convosco para notar o nosso interesse. Queríamos pedir-vos para este efeito quaisqueres outros documentos a que tenham acesso sobre a propriedade (caderneta, algum documento sobre áreas de construção ou restrições por exemplo) para além do que já está no vosso site. Pedíamos também que se aparecerem mais compradores nestas próximas semanas, que entrem em contacto connosco primeiro para podermos também definir se sempre conseguimos apresentar uma proposta. Com os nossos melhores cumprimentos, @nelsonic I know it might seem like a waste of time but should we try to book to go see it again towards the end of this week, after a week of rain? |
|
@LuchoTurtle thank you very much for your thoughts/feedback.
Obviously Lisbon is Your assessment is 100% correct: it's only a matter of time before these short-drive-to-Porto properties become totally unaffordable to local people. The data/evidence is clear: the prices are being pushed up fast! I'm currently working on writing a plan for how we can afford to acquire this 💸 "Buy land, they're not making it anymore." ~ Mark TwainUp the river is "Passadiços de Paiva": http://www.passadicosdopaiva.pt/en
Here's a Map of our most frequently visited places in PT: @iteles what other questions do you feel need to be answered by a proposal for considering this land? |
|
@iteles as you can imagine I'm super keen to do a more in-depth visit, look at the paperwork and even meet the current owners. I would exclude the part about "mais compradores". Just say: we need to review our finances with our accountant to see if we can put together an offer. Please come sit next to me when you can so we can get this sent. |
|
I'm particularly keen on knowing from the current owners if the property is considered "Public interest" or "Municipal interest" because of its' location ... if it is, there will be more scrutiny of what we are doing ... As noted above, the local Village where the land is based is called "Souselo": https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souselo
They are keen to encourage new residents in their village: https://jf-souselo.pt/apoios/nascer-em-souselo |
|
New email proposal based on our conversation at lunch that we do want to go and see the land after the one week of rainfall: Boa tarde Diogo e Ferreira, Obrigada mais uma vez por nos levarem a ver os dois terrenos a semana passada. Como vos dissemos na altura, o primeiro terreno que vimos em Marco de Canaveses não foi muito ao encontro do que pretendíamos mas gostamos bastante do segundo, em Souselo com acesso ao Rio Paiva. Como nos disseram que não há praticamente margem de manobra no preço do terreno, estamos neste momento a rever a parte no financiamento e do que poderíamos fazer com o terreno a médio e longo prazo mas queríamos entrar em contacto convosco para notar o nosso interesse. Queríamos pedir-vos para este efeito quaisqueres outros documentos a que tenham acesso sobre a propriedade (caderneta, algum documento sobre áreas de construção ou restrições por exemplo) para além do que já está no vosso site. Para além disto, gostávamos de visitar novamente o terreno no fim desta semana se possível, de preferência na sexta-feira de manhã ou à tarde para revermos tudo, particularmente após esta semana de chuvadas! Com os nossos melhores cumprimentos, |
My 2 concerns remain exactly the same, I don't have any others: the land on which we can build permanent structures is tiny so we have to be super careful about the laws around things like tiny houses and that the numbers have to add up even if we can't put more than a couple of tiny houses on the property because we could get hit with an uncooperative town council at any time. If this is a business, even if it's out of sight, I guarantee the câmara in such a small area that doesn't have many businesses will make it their business to know everything. It has to be beyond reproach. Once we've worked through those two things, then a proposal is the easy part! |
|
Of the properties currently for sale in the Souselo (Cinfães) area on a specialty "Quintas" (small farms) website:
None of them have river access and quite a few are more expensive yet worse than the land we're considering ... @iteles want to go visit this one just for giggles: I actually prefer the seclusion of the land we are looking at. way more privacy and less noise from the river. |
|
This is a quick sketch of a potential I've written up a plan that gives I don't have excess time to be developing this idea further right now. |
|
That’s a lot os sites
…On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 at 20:19, Nelson ***@***.***> wrote:
This is a *quick* sketch of a potential *50-spot* camp site:
[image: image]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/258661033-38c78d05-9ad7-45eb-85a0-1a9b2e52ee73.png>
Click to view larger.
I've written up a plan that gives ~€200k/year in revenue on a cost base
of ~€100k. 💭
The total up-front investment would be the land price then ~€480k.
The pay-back period for a well-run camp site is ~5-7 years depending on
how frugal we can be.
After that point we own the asset(s) outright and can either get a bank
loan to develop it further
or just make it our own personal farm and live off the cashflow from other
investments.
I don't have excess time to be developing this idea further right now.
But if it were up to me I would buy the land immediately as an inflation
hedge
and then dedicate my time to it as soon as Braga @home is complete.
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<#116 (comment)>,
or unsubscribe
<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AF37S7QHHFZUAJFWUBDTPCLXT7U43ANCNFSM6AAAAAAQB2C47E>
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
***@***.***>
|
|
@carolrmc indeed. This is just for illustration purposes to communicate the idea. 💡 The idea is to have a privacy barrier vine/hedge between each spot so that nobody looks at anyone else. Then once we reach the 50 capacity, the camping pitches would gradually be transformed into 30 off-grid cabins and tiny homes (non-permanent structures) with a much higher annual revenue but also higher maintenance costs. Have a quick look at: https://www.booking.com/hotel/nl/camping-vliegenbos-cabin.en-gb.html Yes, this is in Holand, near Amsterdam, but it's 
The cabins are what most people would consider "basic" but I quite like them.
Being raised off the ground, none of them are wheelchair friendly ...
Point is this: I think every Euro we invest into land and building something will be worth 2 Euros in 10 years. Camping/van pitches is an ultra-low cost/maintenance way of getting to revenue. (i.e. not going broke) |
|
watch/listen to 5 mins of the latest Huberman AMA podcast: https://youtu.be/eJU6Df_ffAE?t=105
Gist: to optimise health & sleep, spend time in nature near a "moving body of water". 💧 |
|
@carolrmc now that you have visited the land in-person what are your thoughts? 💭 Please have a read of my draft: |
|
This is a very interesting indepth plan and for the most part doable. I guess you'll have to prioritise things in order of urgency and earliest financial return. In the meantime, get one of your travelling house guests to do some research for local places to get materials and possible builders to start as soon as you get the go ahead. Even if you have the 2 cottages ready, you can start letting. |
|
Thanks for the feedback! 🙏 |
This land deserves its' own issue/thread. 😍
https://www.imohouse.pt/imovel/quinta-com-frente-de-rio-cinfaes/14965499
https://supercasa.pt/venda-quintas-e-casas-rusticas-t4-cinfaes/i227748
PDF: T4-à-venda-em-Souselo_compressed.pdf
If I could somehow sell everything I own and put a deposit down I would buy it immediately ...
will add my thoughts on our visit as comments below.
related to: #3 + #25
The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: