Alcohol?

[nelsonic]

These videos go part of the way to capturing WHY I don't drink Alcohol:

• Tove Lo - Habits -> https://youtu.be/SYM-RJwSGQ8 does this look like "fun" to you...?
  or is she just incredibly lonely and trying to fill the void of genuine human connection...?
• Macklemore - Otherside -> youtu.be/fvDQy53eldY (sad) 😢
• Chase & Status - Time -> https://youtu.be/we9jeU76Y9E (grim reality of living with an alcoholic)
• Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong -> https://youtu.be/PY9DcIMGxMs (science & evidence) -> Yay Portugal! ❤️ #HowCaniBePortuguese?

I've worked in Restaurants/Bars/Pubs/Festivals (when I was a student as those were the jobs available and I needed to pay rent!) and served/bought drinks to/for many people so I'm not "blameless" but now that I have the means to do the right thing I can make a firm commitment to never buy anyone an alcoholic drink again.

@iteles what do you think about never buying anyone an alcoholic drink again to send the right message...? or is it "too extreme"...? 🤔

[iteles]

This study was pointed out to me recently and I thought this was an adequate place to put it (i.e. we need to understand why and mitigate for it): http://www.businessinsider.com/abstaining-from-alcohol-significantly-shortens-life-2013-12

I stopped buying people alcoholic drinks directly a long time ago (i.e. I show up with a bottle of olive oil rather than a bottle of wine at dinner parties) but indirectly, I think it's difficult. If we go out for dinner with someone and we'd like to pay for dinner but they've ordered wine or a beer it would make things difficult...

[nelsonic]

I'm going to have to call BS on this BI "article". The "research" it refers to had 1,824 study participants, that might be an "OK" number in some studies, but it's really not anywhere near enough to form a conclusive evidence-based decision about the subject.

while the study it refers to Nurses' Health Study (NHS) on alcohol consumption and health outcomes https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27459455 did say that:

"women with low to moderate intake and regular frequency (> 3 days/week) had the lowest risk of mortality compared with abstainers"

It's worth reading the Full Story: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/alcohol-full-story/

It's the adage that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger..."
But the stat could have said women who suffer "moderate" (yet non-fatal) domestic abuse live longer and the same (twisted) "logic" would have applied. When what we should be trying to understand is: what are the ingredients/micro-nutrients in the alcoholic beverage and can they be included in your diet by other means so that you get all the benefits without the (many documented) negative effects ? And is the alcohol in the beverage useful to your body in any way...?!

If the objective is to "raise levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDL, or “good” cholesterol)" why not simply bypass the Alcohol and do something specific to improve HDL like eating more nuts, fatty fish or regular exercise.
http://www.prevention.com/health/health-concerns/how-improve-your-cholesterol

if you scroll down the study's findings you'll see the part that the BI article "forgot" to mention:

"There is convincing evidence that alcohol consumption increases the risk of breast cancer."

So you might live longer, but you'll increase your chance of having cancer and thus spending a year or two of your life in a hospital getting Chemotherapy, sounds like a great time! 👍

[nelsonic]

This is a great (funny) show about Alcohol: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0610182

[nelsonic]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/06/even-moderate-drinking-can-damage-the-brain-claim-researchers

[nelsonic]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/18/even-moderate-drinking-by-parents-can-upset-children-study

[nelsonic]

https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/research/our-research-and-evaluation-reports/drinking-to-cope-drinkaware-and-yougov-survey/

Almost 60% of people who drink alcohol are doing so "because it helps them to cope" ...
So while you might not personally use Alcohol as a "crutch", the majority of people do!
Why would anyone start drinking Alcohol if they know there is a high likelyhood they will end up using it to "forget their problems".
And even you don't consider yourself to be a "problem drinker",
there's an incredibly high likelihood that others around you are!
Which means you are triggering their behaviour.

Why not "lead by example" and forego alcohol?

[nelsonic]

Largest study of its kind finds alcohol use biggest risk factor for dementia

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180220183954.htm

[nelsonic]

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2818%2930134-X/fulltext

http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(18)30134-X.pdf

"Our study has highlighted the complex and diverse
potential mechanisms by which alcohol consumption
may exert cardiovascular effects.41,42 It has shown that the
association between alcohol consumption and total
cardiovascular disease risk comprises several distinct
and opposite dose–response curves, rather than a single
J-shaped association. In particular, whereas higher
alcohol consumption was roughly linearly associated
with a higher risk of all stroke subtypes, coronary disease
excluding myocardial infarction, heart failure, and
several less common cardiovascular disease subtypes, it
was approximately log-linearly associated with a lower
risk of myocardial infarction. Our results are concordant
with recent observational data and Mendelian randomisation
studies."

"These data support adoption of lower limits
of alcohol consumption than are recommended in most
current guidelines."

The study does not say that people should eliminate alcohol consumption.

This could be for a number of reasons including funding sources, political constraints
or Food Libel Laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_libel_laws
Given that Alcoholic drinks are technically classified as a "food",
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_drink#Food_energy
anyone based in the US claiming that Alcohol is outright "bad for health"
could be liable for a lawsuit from the Mega-drinks Co's! 😞

Side-note: This is the one list Portugal does not want be ranking highly in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

[rub1e]

Not pictured: Bulgaria 💪 🇧🇬

Can't believe UK isn't in the top ten, what a bunch of melts 👎

I hadn't noticed this issue before - very interesting thread!

If I make a personal and intellectual plea: consider deleting the words science and evidence from the link to the plagiarist Johann Hari's video about addiction. Or just deleting the link entirely.

In this book on addiction and his latest on depression, the disgraced plagiarist Hari serves up the purest woo, cut from whole cloth.

He is not interested in science, he is not interested in evidence. He is only interested in his public rehabilitation; and it is to the great discredit of the mainstream media (and celebrities and politicians) that they've facilitated it.

I hold him in the same regard as I do anti-vaxxers: he tells people with mental health problems to stop taking their medicine.

[iteles]

Heard this in the news this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43738644
Relating to this study: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)30134-X/fulltext

Interestingly:

[nelsonic]

@rub1e I strongly suspect that the only reason UK is not top of this list 🤔
is because a lot of Brits consume copious amounts of Alcohol when they are abroad ... ✈️
So it doesn't count towards the domestic consumption ... 😉
#LadsWeekend https://www.instagram.com/explore/tags/ladsweekend

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20151102-why-do-the-british-drink-so-much
And quite a few purchase their booze on "booze cruise" to the continent ... 🚗 🍺

Another reason is that the type of Alcohol that the countries in the "Top Ten" drink is mostly Spirits
which require less volume to consume considerably more alcohol.
Whereas in the UK the most popular choice of Alcohol is Wine ... 🍷
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/drugusealcoholandsmoking/bulletins/opinionsandlifestylesurveyadultdrinkinghabitsingreatbritain/2014

(although if you live in London you'd be forgiven for thinking that Gin is most popular,
because in public it is ... #fashion. 😉 )

Also, in Portugal a "good" bottle of wine is €2 and "cheap" box wine is €0.84/Litre !!

Is it any wonder that some people drink a glass of the stuff at every meal ... 🙄

Johann Hari ?

As for Johann Hari, yes what he did when he was a journalist is unacceptable 😞
and he deserved to be fired and stripped of his "awards". 🔪
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari#2011_scandals 🔍

But for his book on Addiction "Chasing the Scream" he appears to be making the effort to post all his original sources/interviews online for others to "audit":
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/02/johann-hari-interview-drugs-book-independent

Some of the comments on this Guardian article are scathing/unforgiving! 🤔

Wether he has "plagiarized" the content of the book on addiction and corresponding TED Talk
is a question that hopefully will be determined by the scrutiny from his many critics ... e.g:
http://www.jeremy-duns.com/blog/2014/9/7/kdgwxcbsned1rknh0h3zdvqrebxa3x

But regardless of his past actions the book has "reached" and "resonated with"
a lot of addicts, former addicts and their families.
Read the reviews on Amazon and Comments on YouTube to see for yourself.
https://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Scream-First-Last-Drugs/dp/1620408910

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY9DcIMGxMs

When a (disgraced) journalist is able to bring an alternative viewpoint on Addiction
to the attention of the mainstream ("laymen_) population, it's arguably a good thing.
Granted it's giving Hari a "platform" and "redemption" he maybe doesn't deserve.
Obviously I would have preferred if Atul Gawande had written the book
as his motivation, integrity, and credibility is unquestionable.

This opens the question/debate of "redemption", "rehabilitation" and "forgiveness".
There are people who have done much worse than plagiarism, wikipedia slander and falsifying sources, for example Jordan Belfort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Belfort who stole millions from thousands of people and ruined lives through financial scam/crime. Served 22 months in prison (low sentence because he gave testimony against his employees!! who he schooled in the deception!) then gets out, scores a Movie Deal for his book glamourising the behaviour and is now a "Motivational Speaker"...?! 😕

Personally, I find it "difficult" to "forgive" people who have done something fundamentally "wrong" or immoral when they knew it was wrong up-front ...

• Politicians that lie to people. 🙊
• Businesses who say they are "help people connect", but are actually just stealing people's data
  and selling it to advertisers or allowing others to steal it and use to get lying politicians elected! 👎
• "Food" companies who deliberately advertise sugary crap to children to get them addicted. 📺

Most people who are addicted to a substance have lied about their use. If these people "come clean" and stop using, should we "forgive" them (to help them move on) or continue to distrust and alienate them?
From personal experience of having ("recovering") Heroin/Cocaine addicts in my family,
people who lied, cheated and stole to fuel their addiction for several years,
I "wrestle" with this thought occasionally: should the person be given a "clean slate"?
Without being given the opportunity to start over, we deny them the chance to "re-connect"
so no matter how hard they are trying they will feel like they are a perpetual failure
and become addicted to something else deemed "socially acceptable" (but similarly destructive)
like sugar, television or internet addiction (facebook, gambling, pornography, etc.)

I would personally not have been aware of the "Rat Park" experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park good video summary: https://youtu.be/sbQFNe3pkss


#PhaseTwo 😉
(mostly because I don't actively do any research into addiction - yet - because it does not personally "affect" me. apart for sugar I don't think I'm "addicted" to anything ... 🤔)

Counter-argument:
https://theoutline.com/post/2205/this-38-year-old-study-is-still-spreading-bad-ideas-about-addiction

To conclude, I think the people who were "wronged" by Johann Hari
should decide for themselves if they are willing to "forgive" him or not.
IMO anything that fuels the "drugs" and "addiction" debate in the mainstream (which will ultimately lead to policy change, thus improving the lives of addicts and reducing crime, suffering etc.) is a good thing!

To be clear @rub1e I agree with you that Johann Hari is (or at least was)
a despicable liar & cheat; akin to the being the Lance Armstrong of journalism.
I agree that it would be preferable to link to a more "scientific" account of addiction.
Including "randomized double-blind placebo controlled" studies on addiction and recovery.
But sadly all we have are studies with "methodologically flawed" studies that one side of debate likes to pick holes in. The closest thing we do have to "science" is the Portugal example where
all drugs are decriminalised and addicts are given help/support instead of stigmatisation and punishment.By any measure the "Portugal Experiment" is

I was not personally affected by Johann Hari previous actions and neither were most of the millions of addicts around the world, many of whom may be "helped" by his book.

Returning to the focus of this issue, Alcohol which is widely known to be addictive and growing rapidly:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/08/11/study-one-in-eight-american-adults-are-alcoholics

My objective with this issue is to capture a few links to why consuming alcohol is not a good idea ...
With the aim of eventually writing a "blog post" on the subject that I can point people to,
when they ask me why I "don't drink" ...
I don't think that the "majority" of people in the Western World are going to suddenly turn "teetotal" because people "enjoy" their glass wine, pint of beer/cider or ... and because the Mega Drinks companies have the most creative and often manipulative advertising campaigns which consistently put out the "drinking alcohol will get you good times and love" message.
https://www.adforum.com/creative-work/best-of/7921/best-alcohol-ads/play#34468185


Yes, Pharrell Williams ("Beat Master") advertising Smirnoff, while celebrities remain "for sale",
we don't have a hope in heck of helping people realise they are killing themselves prematurely
not to mention self-inducing "hangovers" which waste copious amounts of their "good" years.
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

Alcohol is considerably worse in terms of premature deaths and societal destruction
than "Class A" Drugs like Cocaine or Heroin,
and yet it's still "OK" to advertise it on Television and Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/policies/ads/restricted_content/alcohol

As long as it complies with local law, of course we're happy to take your money!

Alcohol advertising works.
Impact of Alcohol Advertising and Media Exposure on Adolescent Alcohol Use: A Systematic Review of Longitudinal Studies
https://academic.oup.com/alcalc/article/44/3/229/178279

There is still "debate" (FUD) fueled by the vast cash from the industry
in that "moderate" drinking is "healthy":
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/this-is-your-brain-on-alcohol-2017071412000

In the same way that it's still "OK" to consume refined sugar as part of a "balanced diet", e.g:

Nutella (as delicious as it is...) isn't exactly "healthy":

Anyway, enough, I feel like this has turned "rambling" and I should get back to my "work" ... 😉

[rub1e]

Big study, potentially of interest

https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k2927

[nelsonic]

GOTO: dwyl/hq#485

[nelsonic]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/hangover-serious-consequences-driving-working-bath-psychology-study-attention-memory-a8507571.html

[iteles]

There is "no safe level of alcohol".

Though previous research has shown moderate levels of drinking may protect against heart disease, the new study concluded any supposed boosts to health are massively offset by the costs.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/alcohol-drinking-no-safe-level-health-heart-disease-cancer-study-a8505181.html

[nelsonic]

Drug harms in the UK: a Multicriteria Decision Analysis

Overall, alcohol was the most harmful drug (harm score 72), with heroin (55) and crack cocaine (54) in second and third places.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61462-6/fulltext

[nelsonic]

https://youtu.be/UUnRKf2CemA

[nelsonic]

Robin Dunbar famous for Dunbar's Number wrote this piece for the FT entitled
"Why drink is the secret to humanity’s success":
https://www.ft.com/content/c5ce0834-9a64-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d
(gotta love those human-friendly URLs ... 🙄)
Discussed on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21884981 (sadly mostly opinion and nitpicking ...)

The article is reasonably well-written but is western-biased, influenced by the author's own biases and crucially is based on research that a questionable funding source.

Cui Bono? Always ask: "Who benefits form this?"

The "research" for this article was a national survey conducted by the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA)
http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-01-06-your-health-benefits-social-drinking
Functional Benefits of (Modest) Alcohol Consumption Published: 28 December 2016 in Adaptive Human Behavior and Physiology: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-016-0058-4

Who benefits from articles that conclude that "social drinking" is good for you...? 🤦‍♂

A classic case of research(er) bias as described in dwyl/sleep#44 (comment)

Edit: my comment on the thread is near the top:

There is no doubt in my mind that Prof. Dunbar had either a personal or financial interest (research grant) in the outcome of this "research". Alcohol is hugely destructive to society (see: #48 (comment) above) and given that it disproportionately affects the most vulnerable members of society, we should be vigilant of pseudo-studies that promote its' consumption for whatever superficial reasoning.

[nelsonic]

A brief history of alcohol (TedEd video): https://youtu.be/y5XEwTDlriE

[nelsonic]

“Almost anything can be preserved in alcohol, except health, happiness, and money." ~ Mary Wilson Little

[nelsonic]

Why do people wish to stupefy themselves?
https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/12/30/why-do-men-stupefy-themselves-leo-tolstoy/

[nelsonic]

https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

• In 2016, 3 million deaths, or 5.3 percent of all global deaths (7.7 percent for men and 2.6 percent for women), were attributable to alcohol consumption

This is roughly on the same order of magnitude as the global deaths from Covid 19 in 2020 (the worst year)
https://www.who.int/data/stories/the-true-death-toll-of-covid-19-estimating-global-excess-mortality

Yet while the Covid Pandemic received widespread media attention and rapid vaccine response,
the arguably worse global Alcohol Use Disorder (AUD) goes unreported.

There are still adverts for alcohol in places where children see them. e.g. professional sports!
All the major football teams in Portugal (where we currently live) are sponsored by beer companies:

The "Super Bock" brand is bigger than the player's name!!

In Portugal, 11% of males have Alcohol use disorders and 4.9% are Alcohol dependent. 😮
If you know 20 people, statistically, one of them is an alcoholic.

https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/profiles/prt.pdf?ua=1

It's mind-boggling to me that people think this is "OK"...!

[nelsonic]

What Alcohol Does to Your Body: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6q1RH8A3O3c

[nelsonic]

The evidence is clear: any level of alcohol consumption can lead to loss of healthy life:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-20/is-a-glass-of-wine-a-day-good-for-me-heart-federation-says-no no paywall: https://archive.is/0vqdW#selection-3019.1-3019.89

Linked study:
Alcohol use and burden for 195 countries and territories, 1990–2016: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2016: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext

The paper is a bit dry (no pun intended) but the conclusion is unequivocal: no amount of alcohol is healthy.

[nelsonic]

Is It Better to Drink a Little Alcohol Than None at All? https://youtu.be/l3ilpQ-_IME

[nelsonic]

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-62579943

[nelsonic]

WHO: No level of alcohol consumption is safe for our health

https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-alcohol-consumption-is-safe-for-our-health

Definitive answer.

Full peer-reviewed article in The Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(22)00317-6/fulltext

Via: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34752193 a few insightful comments.
But sadly, mostly people protecting their "right to choice" (self harm and harming others!)
rather than discussing the merits of the science.

[nelsonic]

"If you're trying to get your life together and your friends get in the way,
that's actually real useful for you, because you've now identified who your friends aren't."
https://youtu.be/DE9K5N18rf0