Probital and disgust vomit are knockdowns, not stuns

[carlarctg]

About The Pull Request

Disgust vomit knocks you down rather than stunning you.

Mitogen Metabolism Factor knocks you down rather than stunning you.

Why It's Good For The Game

Disgust vomit knocks you down rather than stunning you.

With the recent update to rust causing disgust on tiles, you end up vomiting, getting stunned, accruing even more disgust on the tile, vomiting again. An endless cycle of misery. Vomits should suck, but I don't think they should stunlock.

Mitogen Metabolism Factor knocks you down rather than stunning you.

Similarly, Mitogen Metabolism Factor makes you vomit when overdosed. This is normally fine, but fermichem always finds a way to ruin things - it can be made via inverse Probital and is a guaranteed chain-stunner for far too little effort.

Easy, cheap, hard-to-escape stunlocks are bad.

Changelog

🆑
qol: Disgust vomit knocks you down rather than stunning you.
del: Mitogen Metabolism Factor knocks you down rather than stunning you.
/:cl:

[Sadboysuss]

I think movement slowdown after vomit like in ss14 would be good but this is also good, I hate the stun vomit gives you.

[EnterTheJake]

Ok first of all this a balance change, because it's a massive nerf to Rust heretic.

Heretic disgust is applied if you stand on rusted tiles long enough, that's the entire point, it punishes you for overextending, i don't want people to just shrug of walking into a heretic domain with a simple knockdown.

I heavily disagree on it being a cheap and easy hardstun, it's entirely within the player agency to manage their disgust, it's meant to be a punishment for poor decision making, and it can be easily countered by simple walking off rust and sipping some sol dry.

i purposefully balanced Rust heretic around this mechanic, now that toxin is gone from Blade and entropic plume, it's currently the path with the lowest damage output alongside knock, you trade damage for strong CC.

Should this change go through, we might need to take another look at Rust, and tbf i really really don't want to.

The rework hasn't been out for 2 weeks, let people get accustomed to it before we make changes.

[Higgin]

kill it, it's a dumb hardstun. maybe add the short-term slowdown or confusion mentioned elsewhere here, or make it briefly blind people if they've got a mask/full helmet on?

having seen new rust heretic in the wild recently @EnterTheJake I don't think leaning in on the disgust vomit as hard as was done was the right move there - there's psicodine, ondansetron, sol dry, and good food for your character's tastes. I dragged a seccie around for about 10m last night giving them psicodine and donuts for the extreme disgust to persist, and while the disgust itself was fine - plus the slowdown and low mood they had from it all kicking their guts up - the hardstun spam was relatively unameliorable for them and sucks to play with.

this is also true of stuff like rat spit or old ipecacide/syrinifergus ODs.

[EnterTheJake]

kill it, it's a dumb hardstun. maybe add the short-term slowdown or confusion mentioned elsewhere here, or make it briefly blind people if they've got a mask/full helmet on?

having seen new rust heretic in the wild recently @EnterTheJake I don't think leaning in on the disgust vomit as hard as was done was the right move there - there's psicodine, ondansetron, sol dry, and good food for your character's tastes. I dragged a seccie around for about 10m last night giving them psicodine and donuts for the extreme disgust to persist, and while the disgust itself was fine - plus the slowdown and low mood they had from it all kicking their guts up - the hardstun spam was relatively unameliorable for them and sucks to play with.

this is also true of stuff like rat spit or old ipecacide/syrinifergus ODs.

That's likely because of a bug, i currenty already have a fix for #83417 , that makes disgust lasts forever.

And yes @carlarctg if you add a slowdown after the puke i guess it's a fair compromise, i still think that's gonna leave rust a bit weak, but then again only time will tell.

[carlarctg]

Yeah no, your intent with the change was to add a form of accruing attrition over time like Rust is meant for. It's not meant to keep people stunlocked and at a huge combat disadvantage if they spend more than 5 seconds on a rust tile. This PR is perfectly in line with the design. Trying to fight at 0 nutrition will be enough of a debuff.

[EnterTheJake]

Yeah no, your intent with the change was to add a form of accruing attrition over time like Rust is meant for. It's not meant to keep people stunlocked and at a huge combat disadvantage if they spend more than 5 seconds on a rust tile. This PR is perfectly in line with the design. Trying to fight at 0 nutrition will be enough of a debuff.

you literally cannot puke until you've spent at least 10-15 seconds on a rusted tile.

Walking on rust should be considered a last resort, the mechanic is punishing because that's what it's meant to do, you are by your choice stepping into an hazardous area instead of playing the tug-of-war by scraping off the rust and then advancing.

Rust heretic is fairly slow at spreading rust preascension, has no mobility, low damage, and little to no ranged abilities.

It makes sense they are supposed to be powerful within their turf.

Hardstuns are annoyng, that much i get and i'm not totally opposed to changing them to something else, but a simple knockdown doesn't offset all of the other weaknesses that were purposefully introduced, i did remove toxin damage for a reason.

[DustanHache]

heres a dumb idea. Make it cause stamina damage on dry heaves only, and clear/reset disgust on stamcrit from a dry heave. If someone is vomiting for that long a time anyway their mood is gonna be absolutely tanked, the stamina damage slowing them down even more, and they’re gonna want to fall back to wait out the disgust/fix their mood lest they hit stamcrit in front of an angry rusty boi

[00-Steven]

wait why did you tag changing the mitogen metabolism factor overdose as a removal? you're just changing it from stun to knockdown

[EnterTheJake]

After playing a few rounds as Rust Heretic, I've now changed my mind on the subject

Rusties have low damage, but the sheer utility plus the stunlock are too oppressive.

So yeah changing it to knockdown is a good idea.